Ban the car!!

keith

Member
Messages
624
As I said a while ago, first ban Diesel them Petrol and then start with Electric.
I read an article where one of the Governments air pollution advisors claimed electric cars are not the answer for city's.
Apparently beyond tail pipe pollution, all vehicles produce air born particles from brakes tyres and even dust thrown up from the road which are harmful to health. The only full proof way forward is public transport bicycle or walk!!
The way this country is going, to use a sketch from 'Not the Nine o clock news', we will be banned for wearing 'A loud shirt in a built up area' !!!
Beggars belief...
 

rockits

Member
Messages
9,167
Even public transport and all related infrastructure is far from pollution free when you think about it. Until all power for trains, buses, stations etc. is all carbon neutral and using 100% renewables I wonder how much better public transport is if at all?
 

midlifecrisis

Member
Messages
16,102
As I said a while ago, first ban Diesel them Petrol and then start with Electric.
I read an article where one of the Governments air pollution advisors claimed electric cars are not the answer for city's.
Apparently beyond tail pipe pollution, all vehicles produce air born particles from brakes tyres and even dust thrown up from the road which are harmful to health. The only full proof way forward is public transport bicycle or walk!!
The way this country is going, to use a sketch from 'Not the Nine o clock news', we will be banned for wearing 'A loud shirt in a built up area' !!!
Beggars belief...
Actually I'd rather see 'wearing ridiculous trousers in a built up area' to be introduced...the stuff Hipsters wear...skinny legged trousers with the waist band around their thighs... grr!
 

outrun

Member
Messages
5,017
But if we don't control population, the world cannot sustain the growth rate. Big up abortion, large engines and natural selection by balcony mounted trampolines.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,951
We've followed a couple of 17 year old buses lately on the bus route into and out of town. The smoke that was coming out of them was much worse than even the worst white van I've seen. As these are in and out of the city all day long I'd have thought that they be far bigger contributors to pollution than the cars we see.

Also what happened to the investment that was supposed to come with privatising the busses?

We do have some electric busses on one of the park and ride services. Why not on all busses in the centre?

I'd welcome a law on banning that silly top knot on men ;)
 

Felonious Crud

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,013
Buses are bloody filthy. The shite that pours out of the back of the school buses around here is horrible, belching carcinogenic filth everywhere. They should be scrapped, immediately.
 

Lozzer

Member
Messages
2,280
Ban cars? I think it's about time we banned some people, at least a car will do what you want it to do when you ask it to do it, unlike some social dependants, a car will come up nice when you give it a bit of love and attention, whereas some people will always be horrible ugly bastards, you can get a return on a car you invest in unlike some people that couldn't give a toss no matter how much energy you put into them. Ban people, that's what I say.
Ta
Loz
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
Ban the car?

It will happen some day. It's one of the reasons I bought my Maserati now rather than later. Diesel cars are being banned from various cities in Germany, it starts that way but it will spread. The ULEZ in London is coming in. I expect VED to go through the roof as well.

The other black cloud on the horizon is autonomous vehicles. Every manufacturer is chomping at the bit to get these onto our roads as soon as possible. Before they hit the roads we will need reform of the Road Traffic Acts, I expect American style jay-walking laws but we might also see the introduction of mandatory speed limiters. Even if that doesn't happen, just having AVs filling our roads plodding around at the speed limit will change the driving dynamic.

Enjoy your toys while you can folks.
 

Swedish Paul

Member
Messages
1,807
Ban the car?

It will happen some day. It's one of the reasons I bought my Maserati now rather than later. Diesel cars are being banned from various cities in Germany, it starts that way but it will spread. The ULEZ in London is coming in. I expect VED to go through the roof as well.

The other black cloud on the horizon is autonomous vehicles. Every manufacturer is chomping at the bit to get these onto our roads as soon as possible. Before they hit the roads we will need reform of the Road Traffic Acts, I expect American style jay-walking laws but we might also see the introduction of mandatory speed limiters. Even if that doesn't happen, just having AVs filling our roads plodding around at the speed limit will change the driving dynamic.

Enjoy your toys while you can folks.

Autonomous cars?? You’re having a laugh!! AI is a pipe dream. I studied Ai in the 90’s and the only thing that’s changed is that computers are a gizzilion times faster. Doesn’t make them intelligent and anybody trusting their cars to keep them or other road users any safer. Pooh. Same old algorithms, same old data representation. And as to what the cars will look like with all the cameras and stuff? And they still won’t be safe.
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
Autonomous cars?? You’re having a laugh!! .

I'm inclined to agree, and the Volvo fatality in the States shows how far off these things are from working - but every manufacturer is pushing for them like mad. Manufacturers want to shift metal and they see this a huge new market to move into.

My fear is, whether the tech is good enough or not, our legislators will facilitate their needs. Politicians love to be seen to be promoting 'the white hot' technology; especially if promoting means new laws which are free to introduce and the capital investment is made by industry. Politicians see this as a win win, with some lucrative board positions in their futures.

If the manufacturers say they want pedestrians off the streets, we'll get jay-walking laws; if they say they want the human drivers to behave in a predictable way, we'll get mandatory GPS speed limiters, or similar.

Whether the tech ever works properly is a different conversation but this push for AVs is not going to improve your driving pleasure.
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,549
I'm inclined to agree, and the Volvo fatality in the States shows how far off these things are from working

I beg to differ. The only way to make a sensible comparison is fatalities (or possibly injuries, accidents whatever) per miles driven. People seem to forget when discussing driverless cars that cars with drivers are involved in tens of thousands of accidents every day.

In the United States, roughly 32,000 people are killed and more than two million injured in crashes every year (Bureau of Transportation Statistics, 2015).

Cars driven under traditional human control are currently involved in approximately 1.8 fatalities for every 100,000,000 mi (160,000,000 km) driven.

According to reports, human intervention for autonomous vehicles was needed every 13 miles to 5600 miles on average (That's for the Google fleet specifically)

So lots more data required, but intervention doesn't mean there would have been an fatality, or even an accident.

Best list I can see shows a total of four fatalities, globally, on a distance driven of something like 130,000,000 miles. Which is about 3 fatalities per 100,000,000 miles.

C
 

Swedish Paul

Member
Messages
1,807
Statistics and Excel spreadsheets are always biased to the point of view you want to give. A couple of years of google and whoever driving in favorable conditions the majority of the time with a human to override gives what is basically unrealistic comparisons.
The only way this will ever work is dedicated roads that are exclusive. And this will never happen.

What would make a bigger impact is better driver training, better roads etc. but given the lack of for-sight(m25?) and the sheer cost of altering the infrastructure means this will not happen. There has already been fatalities with the “ai” approach and it’s such nonsense because it’s not AI, the just image processing and fast algorithms. Too many science fiction films....
 

Swedish Paul

Member
Messages
1,807
If they were all true and unbiased, we’d be able to predict the weather.

Surely we don’t have to quote Jurassic Park and complex systems and their modelling;)
 

rockits

Member
Messages
9,167
My take is as long as there is a random & unpredictable human element anywhere in the equation that is where it all falls down. Regardless of this being a vehicle or pedestrian. If everything is controlled tracked & automated then it is all a possibility.
 
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TimR

Member
Messages
2,656
Its a frightening prospect...! The fact that the driving/riding experience is to be replaced with "Johnny Cabs" is bad enough. Space is so crammed with the junk the human race has jettisoned into orbit, I couldnt trust a system that vulnerable. The idea that it could be hacked is another reason to resist the onward march of technocrat capitalist politicians...! Seriously bad ideas seemingly to pass as progress :p
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
I beg to differ. The only way to make a sensible comparison is fatalities (or possibly injuries, accidents whatever) per miles driven. People seem to forget when discussing driverless cars that cars with drivers are involved in tens of thousands of accidents every day.

I take your point but draw a different conclusion.

I'm fully aware that KSIs (Killed or Seriously Injured) are shocking on our roads. 50 people have been killed on Britain's roads this this thread started. The carnage is worse than some wars. But that's the status quo and we are prepared to look the other way and let it happen. This sounds callous but that's how it is; we accept it. If we weren't prepared to let it happen then we would have mandatory speed limiters deployed long ago. We would have cameras on every traffic light. We would have APNR parking enforcement everywhere. All cars would have DVLA black boxes. This tech exists now.

What's different about autonomous vehicles is, it is not another there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I human, whom we are prepared to forgive because next time it might be our misjudgment causing a crash, with AVs the killing is being done by Volvo, or Uber.

The public won't stand for Volvo killing them.
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,549
I take your point but draw a different conclusion.

I'm fully aware that KSIs (Killed or Seriously Injured) are shocking on our roads. 50 people have been killed on Britain's roads this this thread started. The carnage is worse than some wars. But that's the status quo and we are prepared to look the other way and let it happen. This sounds callous but that's how it is; we accept it. If we weren't prepared to let it happen then we would have mandatory speed limiters deployed long ago. We would have cameras on every traffic light. We would have APNR parking enforcement everywhere. All cars would have DVLA black boxes. This tech exists now.

What's different about autonomous vehicles is, it is not another there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I human, whom we are prepared to forgive because next time it might be our misjudgment causing a crash, with AVs the killing is being done by Volvo, or Uber.

The public won't stand for Volvo killing them.
Very well observed, sir. There are also enormous ethical questions where the car will 'decide' to take a course of action which results in death or injury of one party, not another. A human may well have made the same decision, or a different one, but, as you say, we'd accept it on some level.

However, I still reckon that we will be the last generation of drivers. We'll come to accept the new status quo. Look how many of the younger generation aren't learning to drive, and how many people are using driverless cars and Ubers. Or perhaps look at how those numbers are changing. Or I may be wrong :)

C
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
However, I still reckon that we will be the last generation of drivers. We'll come to accept the new status quo. Look how many of the younger generation aren't learning to drive, and how many people are using driverless cars and Ubers.
C

There is a big change coming. It might take a generation or two, but it's coming. I can see it in microcosm in my own building. Our apartment block has a garage with designated parking spaces. When we moved into this building in the early '90s that garage was over-full; i.e. every flat had a car and many flats had visitors regularly creating cheeky little unofficial spaces. There were more cars than flats.

Recently the building has been modified. Our original flats remain and some intermediate floors have been converted to new flats. The new flats, as required by our local council, are not allowed have Residents' Permits for street parking. Wonderful, we thought, our parking spaces will be like gold dust, all these new residents needing somewhere to park.

Not only has this not happened but even us original residents are no longer using the garage fully. If you visit it now you will see it is half empty. The current residents just aren't bothered owning cars.
 
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